Statements on Garda Reform - 13th December 2006

Statements on Garda Reform – 13th December 2006
Mr. Norris: I also welcome the Minister. He has been most generous with his time and he has shown great respect for the Seanad by the way in which he has introduced Bills and made himself available to listen to debates such as this one. As a Member of this House, I welcome that.
I wish to refer to a number of matters raised in the Minister's speech before coming to other matters. The first is his acknowledgment that two detectives deliberately planted a weapon at a Traveller campsite, allegedly with a view to ensuring a search under section 29 would be successful. That is a really worrying situation.
Mr. Vincent Browne has done a service to the nation by his dramatisations and inquisitions night after night into these various tribunals, including the one which I believe is properly known as the McBrearty tribunal. It would only be just for the State to pay for the legal costs of the McBrearty family because, as was made clear on one of these programmes, it is not a level playing field. Even accused, impugned gardaí who are in a delicate position have massive support from their organisations and, thereby, from the State. I accept there are some legal technicalities involved but, in fairness, it would be a very good thing.
Senator Jim Walsh referred to whistleblowers. Thank God he did not get into his stride because I have to attend a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and if he had, I would never get to make my passionate plea for the metro. Let me say a word about the whistleblowers in these two Houses of the Oireachtas, namely, Senator Jim Higgins and Deputy Howlin. They were the ones who brought this matter to public attention, and they did so in the belief that they were covered by parliamentary privilege. It appears that was not completely so and they got into a great deal of difficulty.
This House also experienced difficulty in supporting them in terms of their legal costs. That is dreadful. I urge the Minister to examine this matter further to see whether there are any imperfections in the matter of parliamentary privilege so that honest and decent Members who do the community a service by whistleblowing are protected. One of the things we value most is our parliamentary immunity. It is one of the great safeguards of democracy. I cannot hear what the Minister is mumbling but I am sure I will find out.

Mr. M. McDowell: I just wonder how many more sets of costs I will have to pay before Senator Norris is finished.

Mr. Norris: I commended the Minister's party and ministerial colleague, the former Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, because she was accused by the newspapers of saving money. I said I thought it was a very good thing and she should not be penalised for it. Perhaps some of the money the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, is saving can be used for this purpose. The Minister could hardly suggest Deputy Howlin and Senator Jim Higgins did not give the State sterling service. It is wrong that they were put under such pressure as a result. The Minister may take a different view.
I know the Minister agrees with me about one matter, although that was not always the case, namely, warrants issued under section 29. I am sure he will remember when the Bill was going through the House, I was one of those who questioned the role of the police in being allowed to issue warrants. I suggested this should be a judicial function rather than a function of the police. I am pleased the Minister stated, as a result of some of these reports, that he is seriously concerned about this operation and is trying to replace section 29 to define as closely as possible the exceptional circumstances in which warrants may be issued by members of the Garda Síochána. The issuing of warrants by the Garda should be very restricted. It is worrying that the police should take any judicial function, which it appears to me they are doing by issuing warrants. I hope the Minister gives the matter close attention.
I have a high regard for the Garda Síochána. I have had virtually nothing but good relations with them. They are a sterling force of which we can, by and large, be proud. There were a few difficulties in the old days when I was active in the gay community, so to speak. We knew there were one or two police stations that were really frightful because they had a bee in their bonnet about the issue and they knew they had a soft target. That is really the only thing about which I can complain.
I urge the Minister to emphasise the role of community policing. In my area of north inner city Dublin, we had a couple of extraordinarily good, engaging young police officers. They were terrific. They got to know the community and made friends there. Information was passed to them because people liked and respected them. That is what we need.
I do not think there is anything peculiar in the air in County Donegal. Having praised Mr. Vincent Browne I now utter an appeal to him, which I doubt he will hear from here, to lay off now because I am suffering from McBrearty fatigue.

Mr. J. Walsh: I would say the Minister is too.

Mr. Norris: What I said previously stands, but one can have enough. It would be incorrect to assume these matters are confined to the County Donegal area. It is necessary to keep an eye on the situation. The Minister will be familiar with the old Latin tag, quis custodiet ipsos custodes, who will guard the guards themselves? We need to keep an eye on this to ensure these practices do not spread. It is a pity that one or two of the detectives involved there appear to be decent people who were led astray. That is a cause of great concern.
I am pleased the Minister approved of the Birmingham report, given its comparative rapidity, the surgical skill displayed and the lack of enormous fees associated with it. As he is in the House, I also commend Senator Maurice Hayes. He was centrally involved in the Patten report. The experience he gained there will undoubtedly be of use in terms of what is recommended in the various reports recently made available to the Minister. There is no doubt the Patten report was a significant one.
I am tired of the constant bickering over Garda numbers. I urge the political parties to lay off trying to confuse people about numbers. I have listened to the debate and it appears to me the Minister is approximately correct. It depends on the snapshot date at which the numbers are taken. One can argue the toss but that leads both sides into folly.

Mr. Cummins: There was not a word about numbers today.

Mr. Norris: I know that. I do not accuse Senator Cummins at all. He might well have been called Himmler if he had referred to numbers.

Mr. M. McDowell: I think it was Goebbels.

Mr. Norris: I know it was, but the Minister has already used the Goebbels analogy so I thought he might like another little smear and Himmler is more suited to Senator Cummins as he has glasses.
It is most unfortunate that people would play politics with these numbers because they are approximately correct. It would be fair enough if there was a real problem. That is partly due to the Garda reserve, etc. I welcome that fact. I compliment the Minister, to whom I am not always complimentary, on facing down a mini-revolt in the Garda by sticking to his position. He said he was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, that he was introducing this measure which was done democratically and passed by the Oireachtas and all the rest of it, and that was it and eventually it was accepted. The Minister won. That was a good day for democracy. The experience of other police forces, including on the neighbouring island, has shown that while it is not a replacement for the police, a reserve force can help.
I approve of civilianising the police force. It is idiotic to have qualified policemen and women answering telephones, typing letters and manning computers. I accept there are times when this is necessary but no garda should be exclusively pinioned into this position. I welcome the recommendation that a civilian should be appointed at deputy Garda Commissioner level dealing with administration and human resource management.
That is very good and I would like to see as much replacement as possible of gardaí engaged in office work. I commend those responsible for the report and I commend the Minister because it appears he is going to take the recommendations on board.
I have here an article which actually approves of this as it states that it allows secretaries, receptionists, analysts, senior crime officers, financial personnel and anything else that is appropriate to be made up of civilians. It goes on to state that this is one of the most difficult areas to bring about in the Police Service of Northern Ireland. I would not be surprised if it was my colleague over there who forged this because he or somebody has come up with the very happy phrase, "Many police officers do not mind being in the comfort and warmth of the barracks rather than out on the streets." One can understand that and empathise with the human situation, but when faced with the difficulties with which we are faced, I do not think we can take as a major consideration the comfort, the warmth and security of the barracks as opposed to how hot and cold the weather is out on the streets.
Both the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, have been involved in the establishment of joint policing committees. On Monday last I attended my first meeting of the central sub-committee of the joint policing committee in Store Street Garda station, having volunteered to do so. It was extremely useful. It was entertaining in some ways to see a representative of Sinn Féin chairing it and sitting next to a chief inspector. I rather enjoyed that and it shows we have travelled a certain distance. The matters that come under review are very ordinary and humble matters such as litter, vandalism, anti-social behaviour, public drunkenness and so on.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator has one minute remaining.

Mr. Norris: I hope it will be as flexible as Senator Walsh's minute. The problem of drunkenness needs to be looked at. The Minister needs to look at the licensing laws because they are far too vague. I complained about licensing laws and I got into severe trouble, but the Minister knows every huckster's shop in this town is stuffed to the roof with vodka.
I wish to raise one other matter - I have a flexible minute remaining - and that is the issue of drugs. Everyone is looking for a solution to the drugs problem. There is one, but it is a difficult one to take. The Minister will definitely not agree with me on this, given what he has said so far. I believe it has got to be tackled at an international level. It will not be helped by the fact that large countries such as the United States have been clearly involved in massive narcotics trafficking in order to fund the undermining of democratically elected regimes, such as in Nicaragua where the Contras were massively funded by narcotics trafficking in which the Americans were openly involved. Let us look at the situation in Uzbekistan where the US and Britain turn a blind eye to the enormous narcotics traffic under the aegis of President Karimov. If international agreement could be obtained it would help to legalise, licence and control it. This would ensure that crime levels would drop massively, addicts would be less prone to die because they would get a quality controlled substance, life would be better all around and the godfathers would be wiped out because what is driving this is the financial incentive.
We found a tonne of cannabis in Westmeath or somewhere, but so what? It simply has not stemmed the tide of drugs; it does not work. All it does is drive up the cost of drugs and the guns come in because of this. One has to look at the whole issue of drugs internationally. With the best will in the world one will never win the alleged war on drugs. It is as specious as the war on terror. One has to understand the enemy rather than denounce it and be prepared to take unpopular steps. There are senior police officers all over Europe who will say exactly the same. Ireland cannot do it on its own. These discussions should start now if we are really serious. We know the practice on the streets already.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator's time has concluded.

Mr. Norris: I recognise the minute was definitely flexible. We are doing it already in a minor way by the provision of methadone maintenance programmes. We should look honestly at them. I did not come up with this solution on my own. I heard this being advocated 15 years ago from the Fianna Fáil benches in the Seanad by its then spokesman on health, Dr. John O'Connell.

Mr. M. McDowell: Enough said.